Cornell vs stanford engineering reddit

Cornell vs stanford engineering reddit. Both have similar starting salaries for engineering. The ramblings below are a weird culmination of my responses Jul 15, 2023 · At Cornell, around 50% of students receive some form of financial aid, with an average award of $43,000. It depends on what you're looking for. Berkeley has that 3. I would say that cmu is worth the price/college. I have done the machine learning course and the IBM data scientist certificate and both are useful in different ways. From my understanding and having looked very carefully at Cornell’s and Princeton’s engineering programs, Cornell has a stronger program in many regards. One main issue is that the city life is apparently lacking. If you have any specific questions, feel free to dm me. CMU would be the lowest in those terms because they considers RD applicants to be the same as ED ones. Yale idk lool. turning down stanford for UCLA was the best decision i made this year. Sports wise, Cornell is very different than USC Choosing Cornell over Columbia. Imagine I went to Columbia, as an engineer the workload would be too rigorous and humanities based for me. Culture: Berkeley wins hands down. Unless this data is skewed, which is highly unlikely, the acceptance rate for CALS in 2016 was 13. The theoretical vs more hands-on approaches between Princeton and Cornell are very real and visible — Cornell’s project teams are a big deal and Cornell’s facilities I think you should factor in how you want to live your life the next four years. But the world doesn't actually point their fingers and snicker at Cornell, especially not their School of Engineering. UCB in-state is $46,000. Multiply by four, it is $170,000 for your undergrad education. (disclosure: Cornell grad, live in NYC) p. Cornell is located just under an hour from the metropolitan city of Syracuse. don't underestimate it. Kinda the opposite of UChicago I feel. For context, I am first gen/low income and the financial packages for both colleges are essentially the same. UIUC. Cornell is in Ithaca (isolated location, a more rural town) while Berkeley is in California (30 mins away from San Francisco). ithaca has terrible, terrible winters. CMU is better for CS and is widely regarded as the number 1 CS school with Berkeley pulling a close second. Schools Applied to: Stanford Schools Accepted to: Stanford School Went to: Stanford CS program one of the "big four". A number of highways intersect at what is Ithaca. Both rank high for CS but princeton is HYPSM so that is a huge boost aswell. There's also the Bowers school of CIS, but the Bowers school isn't listed in the Common App. Stanford HCP lets you come onto campus easily which wld help post C-19, whenever that is. JHU grads earn sh*t salaries compared to Cornellians. [deleted] •. 50k gap is the answer. 3gpa cutoff or something for CS while here if you basically don't fail any classes you should easily be able to affiliate. It seems that Cornell's admissions staff is making 1. I would pick Cornell > Columbia >USC > Yale nationally. Aided by diversity, and specializing I know responses obviously will be skewed but I already reached out to Stanford peers so I'm curious as to what Columbia students might say. i think cmu, berkeley, mit, stanford are generally tied for number 1 but yeah agree that cmu is one of the top schools. You seem to be focusing on things outside of engineering, which would also indicate Cornell. Umich’s UX reach and prestige seems a lot stronger than Cornell’s program reach for UX. A couple product management, a couple software engineering. yyeessssirrskii. Stanford is MASSIVE but a more laid back pace. Both are excellent programs. If you look at Boeing, Purdue is #6 and Maryland's not in the top 15. I would ED Duke if you like both equally because Duke Engineering ED will be easier than Cornell Engineering ED, especially if you’re male. Columbia would fall in between them. First of all, my tuition is completely free at UT. 1. All of the same companies coming to our career fair are going to Penn (and maybe even more finance/banking companies going to Penn). 'if cs and math had a child' is an awful description of OR. SunnyDays1865. You might graduate quicker from the other programs mentioned - lack of CS backg will hurt. It depends what type of person you are. I would pick USC #1 to work in Silicon Valley. But both programs cost the same. Given that the Stanford winter academic calendar is moved ~1wk forward relative to last year (first day of winter classes was 1/11/2020, this year was 1/3/2021), I'm shocked they haven't released help me decide between cornell or uiuc pls! hi, i’m currently trying to decide between physics at Cornell or engineering physics at UIUC for undergrad. call213-400-0076. operations This is a community run by past transfers to the Ivy League, Stanford & other top 25-30 schools. 4. 46 votes, 42 comments. There is only one CS major in Cornell Engineering, while at CMU SCS, you can choose between CS, AI, comp bio, and human-computer interaction. It's a 9 month program which can be extended only by paying an entire semesters fee. You applied ED, and they said "Yes". 179 upvotes · 22 comments. TinderForMidgets. Cornell and Purdue are both lost in the middle of nowhere so the general vibe is probably the same. JHU engineering grads make a median of 90000, cornell engineering grads make a median of 104k. The subreddit for Cornell University, located in Ithaca, NY. ADMIN MOD. Columbia 3. Not in EECS (will be getting a BA in CS and applied math) Will be viewed as extremely hard-working by employers. Also FWIW there’s the Council on Foreign Relations Lastly, I’m going to loop back to my older point about the program itself. janedoe5108 • 5 yr. Think of it like this: if you only got into UCB, you would be happy. With not so much of an impressive physical lab and equipment access but virtual/software access, I'm thinking of "research works" as cool projects. The required CS classes are very similar between the two colleges, although the elective course requirements are a bit different. If you parents can easily afford it then Cornell is the better choice, but if the extra 80k will put a strain on them financially/force you to take out a lot of loans then CMU is probably the better option. r/collegeresults. Surrounding area safety: Ithaca is probably safer. Berkeley is more prestigious at the graduate level. But I was wondering if you had any type of reason as to why I should choose Hopkins over Stanford. Employers care about prestige of the undergrad program and as you stated Cornell's engineering and CS is more prestigious than Princeton's, so based on that and the fact that the department here is bigger (meaning more opportunities), I'd say pick here but I'm biased. Maybe personal clout but that is about it. Log In / Sign Up Cornell has more name recognition because it is an Ivy League to the general population. 9 or higher) with strong research experiences (multiple years of part time in labs, summer REUs, internships, etc). Thanks in advance! Sort by: Open comment sort Well, it all comes down to the fact that Cornell is perfectly located. One advantage of SIPA is that you’re located in NYC where the UN is, so if you’re interested in the UN there are better networking opportunities. AFAIK they do not do interviews. On the other hand, much of it is down to *you* and how strong a student 50K subscribers in the Cornell community. i live in the suburbs of LA anyways. This is a brief description of my application, for context. ago. If you only got into Cornell, you would be happy. 2022 Regular Decision Discussion + Results Megathreads. Some of my programs of interest are MIT, UC Berkeley, Harvard, GaTech, CMU, Columbia, and Caltech. For NASA specifically, if you look at US-based aerospace engineers on LinkedIn whose job function is "Engineering" then Maryland is the #2 supplier (after Georgia Tech) by total count and Purdue is #4. So you will be happy and will succeed no matter what u choose. • 10 yr. Stanford and MIT dinged me. Again Harvard had 85, and that was across 4 subfields. But you’re about to graduate with an undergraduate degree from Cornell. -2-year program with fixed curriculum that looks highly geared towards places like NVIDIA, Intel, etc. Rice for example probably places people at O&G firms in Houston because it’s not desirable for most MBA applicants and a similar dynamic exists at places like Georgetown I was in Cornell CS Engineering back in 1985, and it was considered tops then as well. potentially saved 60k. Berkeley is close to HYPSM tier in terms of grad school. If same price, Cornell for sure. Nothing is even close. However, berk = Cornell in terms of education so pick the cheaper one. Eng (“paid for” by cornell as a part of the employee degree program although the taxes are an entirely separate complaint), aside from the one-semester project it’s just a year of high level CS classes. University of Buffalo, SUNY, most underrated earthquake research MCEER program. Got it, thx. The fact is, Cornell or not, you have to work your ass off to be good at engineering, physics, or whatever you wind up doing. Stanford, incidentally, had 258 graduating primary majors in Engineering, across 9 subfields. Guys I need some help. I chose Stanford bc I had guaranteed funding there as well and felt it was a better fit for my interests, but if I For engineering, Ivy league connection does not mean much especially when GT can provide similar connections. Cornell engineering is on-par or better than Princeton engineering, but the Princeton name carries an immense amount of weight, well beyond that of the “tier 2” of elite colleges that Cornell sits in. Expand user menu Open settings menu. I'm a Year-1 candied into Mechatronics engineering. practically receiving the same quality of education. A. I would pick Columbia #1 if I wanted to do an MBA later in life. Brown: if want a chill vibe + u want to do CS and not some other engineering (cuz brown isn’t too strong there ngl). ORIE is an independent field. 5. I thought that the undergrad CS program at Cornell was great and it was my first choice. nullmask HS Senior • 4 yr. USC 4. 6. My first choice is obviously Stanford simply bc it's the best school in the country for my major. 3- if ur international student, rest assured that MS&E is eligible for STEM OPT. hey i was the exact opposite! i was committed to cmu (for chemical engineering) and got off the waitlist for cornell. CornHellUniversity. But there is no difference in job opportunities. I'm not 100% sure if it's true, and I know salary shouldn't mean everything, but something to keep in mind. 2k/year and provides guaranteed housing for first year students where UCB does not. Once a foo with no goals in the Barrio to a foo now living a fabulous life! My college results and the importance of being open-minded to opportunity and transformation, even as life appears obscure and distrustful. Berkeley's program seems a $ grab from online rep. Duke: pre-professional, sporty vibe. Stanford CS vs. But that doesn't really matter when you are looking for the job since anybody hiring for your major will obviously will have heard of Georgia tech. You can transfer on-campus with OMS but few more hoops to jump through. Lastly, there is a different aspect to UT that Cornell would not have been able to give me. AutoDESK products, MATLAB, Raspberry PI, C++, Altium Designer and Multisim are my go-to interests ! Please share your thoughts and help me choose. Cornell has its pros, sure, but if you dont have a pull either way, go to CMU. I did a compressed 3day intensive version of this program and loved it. true. Any thoughts are welcome. Also, Stanford and mccormick are not even in the same tier. MembersOnline. The second thing is UT is forcing me to gain life skills. By word of mouth, and talking to a lot of CS/engineering seniors, I've heard that the average salary for Engineering degree CS majors is ~10k higher than Arts degree CS Majors, and that employers prefer engineering degrees. and I don't think there will be a huge difference in the affordability aspect at either schools. Stanford also meets 100% of demonstrated financial need for admitted students, with an average scholarship of $54,000. Engineering. of The difference between Stanford and Columbia CS programming assignments is that style, code elegance, and algorithmic efficiency is what differentiates a mean average B/B+ grade from an A-/A grade—shit that they don’t explicitly teach you but only understand after taking Discrete Math & CS Theory Fundamentals. Go to Cornell for the Ivy name. cornell is a huge school with ~16k kids while duke only has ~6k kids. ChickenAtNugget. da_significant. 8-3. 6% vs CAS which was virtually the same at 13. A slightly higher % of Cornell CS grads are employed at Hudson River than Rice grads. Stanford: 995 (998 West of the Mississippi) Penn (Wharton): 992 Duke 990 (995 South of the Mason-Dixon Line) Columbia: 990 Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore: 988 Brown: 987 Penn (other than Wharton), Dartmouth: 985 Cornell (CAS and engineering), Chicago: 980 Northwestern, WUSTL, Rice: 975 Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Emory: 950 I am a rising senior but am unsure of which early action to go to. That has more overall ROI for finding a job than one of these certs Oh and another one to add to your list: UCBerkeley’s “Product Management Studio”. I'll say this: Yale gave me an education, Stanford gave me a job. GT has 000's @ FAANG. Cornell is a 2 year program whereas Columbia is 18 months. 2. Also Stanford has a prettier campus. If so, Berkeley and MIT would not be in top 3. Class registration: probably easier at Cornell. Carnegie Mellon probably has the best CS program in the world, but it seems like you wouldn’t enjoy your experience as much as you would at Cornell. Besides the primary majors, there’s additional majors/concentrations in Robotics, systems, language technologies (like NLP), computer graphics, ML, security, and software engineering. I would say princeton or cornell. 35 votes, 38 comments. Both are beautiful campuses in very different ways. In past years, they have released results within the first week of March (based on GradCafe, 3/4/2021 and 3/2/2020). What do you all recommend? Houston is a giant greenhouse during the summer. I want to major in cs or any engineering major. Ithaca itself is so easy to enter and exit. They’re all close enough in terms of CS programs that it doesn’t matter. Thank you. They are good for other things but def not engineering. Stanford has like 23 libraries, don't know anything else about the subjective or real specific questions. Duke is a 1 year program that can be extended to 1. Unsolicited Tip: A lot of information online about these unis is coming from students who graduated a few years ago (and is thus outdated; these unis changed Cornell isn't hated much here at all. Research Experience: Worked as a coder in Stanford's virtual reality lab for an academic year. ChrisJ2000. r/ApplyingToCollege is the premier forum for college admissions. So yes, at least in CS, Harvard seems to give you better off with academia than Stanford (by a big margin), but this completely disproves your hypothesis that fewer grad students means better outcome in academia. You can submit an application next year just to see, if you wanna just see what happens. Check out the rankings. At Cornell, they would've taken care of my cost of living. It’s like I envisioned myself here. Consider funding and research/course fit. qumbuqet. Purdue again had 2251, and that was across 14 subfields. Unless your family is well off or your parents have loaded up on 529 when you were little, go to UCB. don’t need to deal with self-absorbed or condescending stanford peers lol. In terms of cs classes, you attend the same classes as eng. Number of Internships: 4 internships. Among them being the 34, 13, 79, and 96. Berkeley and RPI accepted me. Stanford's Aero/Astro undergrad program is quite new and last I heard there were still some growing pains. And it certainly has a lot more prestige than GT so you may have an edge in the FinTech/Quant space. However even though Cornell is hard, I expected it to be hard within CoE, and their liberal arts curriculum isn’t as long as the Cornell is a better school with a more complete college experience. chairsenthusiast. The CoRe would absolutely destroy me. Cornell will give you a wider range of options and just be a more comprehensive undergraduate experience, in terms of campus life, overall academic opportunities, and living in a great college town. It stings so much that there were 2,400 people that Stanford decided deserved it more than I did. I think the obvious difference is the difference in the weather (Cornell has 4 true seasons) but depending on what you want to study, you may make your choice based on the professors, research, academics. In fact, in this department Cornell beats any other ivy school. Grad school reputation is field specific. [deleted] • 7 yr. please put weather as a priority. I'd only recommend applying to Harvey Mudd over Cornell if you're 110% decided on engineering, which you're not. IMO my biggest deciding point would be culture fit - Caltech and Stanford are both great schools which will open doors by their name alone, but they have very different cultures (I went to Stanford but only know Caltech by reputation). Cornell 2. Chances are you WILL get to live in a big city, but having to spend 4 years living in great college environment you'll never get to experience again. Princeton even though Cornell CS is better, but you don't give up Princeton for any school less than HYPSM. Cornell definitely offers a more fun/traditional college experience though. May hurt for grad school applications due to grade deflation. K. if given the choice, Cornell or USC. The engineering college has required math, physics and general engineering courses that all engineers would be required to take. Rules: Don’t make your own separate results posts or megathreads—you can request megathreads on this Seems like ECE is especially quiet this cycle, and we could all benefit with some updates on which universities have given out admits (or rejects) for MS and PhD programs. The top at that time were something like Stanford, MIT, CMU, Cornell, Illinois, Berkeley. s. Cornell is gorgeous (gorges 😉). omgasnake. even beyond me personally just being drawn to interdisciplinary stuff in stem, cornell is a lot more diverse (using that term very loosely lol). Cornell is more prestigious at the undergraduate level. 187 upvotes · 29. Stanford PhD vs CalTech PhD. 1M subscribers in the ApplyingToCollege community. 100 degrees with 80% humidity. Economically speaking Cornell might turn out to be more Pros for UCSD: -Familiar workload on quarter system (same as UCLA) -Could go pretty much for free because they pay ECE TAs like $15,000 per quarter, which covers studio apartment and in-tuition. I'd pick Princeton. I haven't gone around asking people about their qualifications but based on anecdotes here and there, most people have high GPAs (3. Yup, my academic advisor told me to pick Berkeley over Cornell when I was offered a PhD at both. (and I went to Cornell) [deleted] • 3 yr. In terms of employment, there is no difference in opportunities. Cornell is the highest ranked Ivy for CS and Engineering in general. Georgia tech is in a city. I received some scholarship from Cornell. It will help your resume standout against thousands of other CS students. So we could check back in, say, four years and see how Harvard compares by then. Cal Poly Pomona, Gets overlooked due to presence of elite schools in California with good earthquake programs. If you're more into arts/culture/music as well as value a student body with more diverse interests, go with Yale. In terms of career stuff, based on LinkedIn, a slightly higher % of Rice CS grads are employed at Google/Facebook/Meta than Cornell grads, as well as at Citadel and Two Sigma. It’s important to consider the cost of living and other expenses when comparing the two schools. Nothing is easy. • 3 yr. Go to Cornell, be around smart kids, secure the best of the best opportunities. It's a T20 with a 10 percent acceptance rate, and they don't actually mean it when they call Cornell a "fake Ivy" or anything. 3. UPenn: very pre-professional vibe in the sense everyone is always doing something (ie start ups). Things to do: Berkeley/SF has a lot more to do than Ithaca. I've heard that Cornell has more of the ivy pressure though which makes it more unpleasant (just something that my friends there have pointed out though they're CS not engineers). GT grades are not inflated so if you want grad school Cornell. Princeton is better connected to the east coast establishment for things like government, IR, and finance. From what I've heard Stanford dorm life has really declined under the current administration. Does that mean Bowers is a subsection of the College of Engineering or is it separate and just not listed on the Common Hey I'm a cs major in A&S. Want to live in Seattle where Berkeley (probably) has more prestige by virtue of being on the west coast. MIT accepts Transfers. I’ll list below my pros and cons, and i would appreciate any feedback. I personally picked GT over Cornell because GT had better clubs and activities like VIP research teams, BME Robotics, and Invention Studio PI. Recruiting: Berkeley has a slight advantage because of proximity to Silicon Valley. • 6 yr. I think it’s worth trading the strength of CMUs CS for a better college experience at Cornell, especially since Cornell’s CS is still top-tier. Cornell is on the East Coast; Berkeley is on the West Coast. Depends where you want to work. I can see this being a valid statement several years ago, but it seems to be a common belief that CALS is significantly easier to be accepted into. Georgia Tech has very limited majors and are really only known for their engineering versus liberal arts. Sure, it might get a few "worst Ivy" jokes, but the majority of people who make those jokes are doing so jokingly. Cornell had 514, and that was across 11 subfields. Yes, the tests are hard, and yes, the curve is hard, but I've found if you do an honest night's work every night, you come out on top. My experience at Cornell, with Engineering, and CS. #19. Solid all around. Cornell (or MIT or Stanford) is not worth $170,000 over UCB. Cornell University, MS Structural Engineers are very liked by employers and can be seen with number of Cornell grads working at TT, WSP and other top firms. Stanford has a stipend of $48. Engineering is much more focused on science and math. Arts and Sciences has more flexible distributions An ORIE or CS major is unlikely to do any pure math beyond the engineering core level, unless they have a particular interest in doing so. 5 years without additional fees. Columbia is hustle and bustle in a big city which can be overwhelming for some and thrilling for others. If you want the cheapest one Rutgers. Cornell is better for engineering overall, Duke is better for BME. •. UROPs at MIT are relatively straightforward. Depends. If you want a job in tech afterwards / become more technically skilled, go with Stanford. rm_rf_slash. Berkeley MET Dartmouth vs Cornell for CS Engineering, and Business at 3/4 the cost of our sister school. To preface, I'm a senior, and over the past few years, I've taken the opportunity given by anonymous college- or university-wide surveys to share my thoughts on my experience so far at Cornell. Hey everyone, I was recently accepted to Stanford as well as to Johns Hopkins for civil engineering. 7. You seem to talk about a slightly different IBM certificate but what I think is that the machine learning course will help you understand how it works and the IBM certificate will help you with applying machine learning to a real world problem. Bro, Cornell CS grads made median 124k straight out of undergrad, that's on par with MIT. if you are a student, you should really reach out to MS&E department peer advisors Both schools are stressful but honestly due to smaller class size and more relaxed affiliation requirements Cornell is probably less cutthroat/competitive. Regardless of selectivity: Duke does not have a top 20 engineering program. Yes: MIT has stronger brand recognition than Cornell. Probably 1. If you have money to blow, get an MBA or one of those Management Science and Engineering degree/certificate from Stanford. That is $42,000 difference. for biomedical engineering (Doesn’t want to go to a grad school; want to work immediately) I know someone studying this, Cornell hands down is the best for bio med engineering. For instance, I bet the number of people from Cornell that end up at top quants would be incomparable to that of UofT's lol. 24 votes, 30 comments. Cornell official cost of attendance is $88,000. Having gone through the M. #2 in engineering vs. I’m super stoked about Cornell but I’m super worried about the allegedly depressed student body, grade deflation in college of engineering, weather, and location when these wouldn’t have been problems at Stanford. Academically, Stanford is a bit better in most engineering disciplines. T5: Cornell/McCombs/Marshall (good schools with flaws) Beyond that list you’re probably not landing an interview unless you’re willing to live in unconventional markets. Just for Google, Cornell has 2175 alumni, whereas JHU has 611. A the specific colleges requirements to qualify for their degree (bachelor's of arts or science). Consider that along with other factors when trying to make a final decision. • 2 yr. Plus, the city abs proximity to SF is apparently more lively than Stanfords. I could live pretty much independently. Secondly, MS&E is pretty broad major and it depend on which track u do, it could be equivalent to a finance degree, management degree, operations research degree, etc in another uni. I have a friend who got admitted into both Stanford and Caltech for Aero/Astro and Dynamics Systems respectively (I don't think it really matters though cause his end goal is to make a startup and he will probably end up doing some kind of ML robotics startup anyways). But in every other possible category, Cornell is better. Collegesimp101 • 3 yr. The only difference between the two are the non-cs classes. ultimately, i decided to go for cornell because it was just a lot more interdisciplinary for me and i was really drawn to that. Just short information regarding if and when admits have come out for a Of the schools you listed, Cornell actually provides the biggest boost for ED applicants. *Note we are not exclusive to top 25 universities, but rather use the name to help identify students pursuing admission to competitive institutions. Pros: dedicateddan. Cornell's program is good as well, but there are literally 0 opportunities for assistantships or on campus jobs. While Cornell is more in a farmish area. There are multiple different colleges at Cornell, obviously, and one of them is the college of Engineering. Both great choices. NYU isn't exactly a _bad_ choice either. We are here to help students share knowledge about the transfer process to top institutions. Cmu is definitely famous. This may be because Umich has the internship program on top of real world course projects, bc it’s an MS as opposed to an MPS, or it’s bc of its larger cohort size for the Cornell might be 5-10+ higher spots than Penn on the USNews CS program rankings or whatever but at the end of the day Penn is still an incredibly prestigious university. Weather: Berkeley wins hands down. Cornell is meh. Fun fact: Berkeley has the #1 undergrad program for BOTH Economics AND Computer Science, as well as having an immense startup culture (2nd most startups by volume of any university after Stanford :( ) and a huge consulting culture too (probably the most of any university (even more than UPenn)) and if cost is about the same, then idk why you wouldn’t want to come It's fun to trash Rutgers (and it is often warranted criticism), but Rutgers is still a great school. Cornell. Keeping in mind each semester is roughly 3-4 credits, an Engineering student is required to take 15-16 Math credits, 8-12 Physics credits, 4-8 Chemistry credits, 2 First-year writing seminars, a Technical Writing requirement, 4 CS credits, 1 intro to Engineering course, 2 distribution r/ApplyingToCollege is the premier forum for college admissions questions, advice, and discussions, from college essays and scholarships to SAT/ACT test prep, career guidance, and more. UCB has a stipend of $41k/year and seems to provide more DEI support and initiatives. [deleted] • 3 yr. Which school has the higher acceptance rate? Do different committees read your application based on your college of choice or is it one committee for all of Cornell? Northwestern vs Cornell vs Tufts. Importantly, Princeton funds all of its MSCS students, while Stanford does not (though a lot of people seem to be able to get a TA-ship after a quarter or two). It was great 20+ years ago. If you’re interested in CS and Math, you’ll probably be best off doing a CS-Math double major. r/ApplyingToCollege is the premier forum for college admissions questions, advice, and . 9%. Current Stanford PhD student here. Demographics: South Asian (Indian) Male, Straight 17 years Indian Citizen Public School Stanford's campus is more secluded (and Palo Alto is more like a suburban city), whereas MIT's is in the middle of a city (and a short walk from Boston) Boston is colder in the winter and I believe about the same in the summer. Engineering and Computer Science are two different things; the Agree. It has a strong engineering program, good opportunities for research and leadership, and name recognition. That’s personal. or bu ap ae zj jo yn ed qq hi